M.J. and I connected for a couple St. Patrick’s Day libations at a surprisingly quiet Drinkwell near our Hyde Park location. The final athlete to be interviewed for the winter season Shop Athlete Spotlight gamely fielded a number of unusually heavy questions and provided some truly insightful thoughts on topics ranging from parenthood to meditative horse riding to giraffes!
Coach Chad: The first thing I wanted to touch on was you working out with Kenna, your daughter, because I saw Jack Brown as I was leaving- do you know Jack?
M.J. Hawes: They guy who never wears a shirt?
Or shoes crucially!
That’s right, and he has a beautiful dog that is usually in the back of his truck.
Yes! He and I actually had our (SAS!) interview in the back of that truck. Well his father also works out at The Shop and they work out together. So I reread his interview and we talked about what it was like to workout with your dad and one of the things that he said was that it brings him comfort to be there with his dad and know that he is taking care of himself.
Ahhh yeah yeah! That is so neat.
Kenna has been coming to class with you for a few months now; what does that dynamic mean to you and all that?
Oh man- That is such a good and multifaceted question. I had been encouraging her to come give it a try for a while now because she is really into yoga and she was a swimmer. I had been annoying and kept trying but one day, unsolicited, she said she wanted to go (to class). So we decided to figure out which classes she likes and which coaches she connects with. As you know, it turns out that she really likes the Strength classes and she really enjoys yours and Keith’s classes and I think she did have a lot of fun at a Fusion class with Bean a while back. So to answer the question about what it means to me: as a parent to a kid that is about to launch and go out on her own, every chance I can get to do stuff with her that we both enjoy is such a treasured moment. Also being the parent of a young woman, I think it is so powerful to learn your physical strength at such an early age and what you can do and just not be intimidated by those environments. I certainly was (intimidated by the gym setting), so I did other fitness things instead of lifting heavy things or even thinking that I could lift heavy things. So I really appreciate how she has connected with it and how The Shop has been such a welcoming and non-intimidating community for her that she could just slip into the community. Even though she is a beginner, she is getting this great advice and support from her coaches and the other members in the class. She’s learning that all gym environments aren’t the same and that (lifting) is approachable, doable, and something you can do at an early age.
That is really interesting. The neat thing for me is that I only see her once a week, and so- you can tell what a beginner looks like- so to see her recently squarely not a beginner anymore has been really fun.
She is picking it up- she really has some chops! I tell her that she is starting at a place that I was working my way towards even when I was double her age doing this whole weightlifting thing.
I love seeing that in a young person- getting that confidence from weightlifting. Now watching you two together, you appear just like any other pair of friends working out. It seems like a very smooth relationship. Do you guys have any gym related tiffs? Like “MOM, What are you DOING?”
*laughing* Oh yeah! You might not see it happening, but the whispers are there behind the scenes. For example, she is pretty particular when we leave- like the workout can’t spill over the hour. It is like she is time managing me.
Oh that is funny, I assumed it was the other way around with you two.
It is pretty funny. Sometimes we just poke fun at each other, but we do have a good relationship in that way.
It definitely seems like you have a good thing going on. Do you have any other people that you’ve developed fun relationships with in class?
I just love our 6am crew- all the familiar faces. We don’t necessarily spend a lot of time talking, but I feel like we have a shared connection just based on our shared commitment to the time and the space. Seeing Michelle, or Shelly, or Virginia & Janani, Kelly, Doak, and Grant and all the folks that travel in that pack- everyone just gets along nicely and I really enjoy that.
That is something I always highlight when giving a tour- that you should try as many classes at different times as you can, but once you start to settle in you will find a gravity to the people you go to class with.
Yeah, isn’t that weird? And my schedule has been weird lately, so I went over to a class at Manor in the evening and the class that was heading out was really boisterous and taking their time leaving, and then the class that I was in was totally subdued. It was a completely different vibe. It is so funny how it can be a completely different environment or energy.
You mentioned before I started recording that you and Shelly and Michelle were thinking of forming a Brains & Brawn team. What sort of advantage do you think that particular group might have? Where would your strengths be?
We are some of the elder stateswomen of the larger community, so I’m thinking what we might lack from a pure power perspective, we have a serious advantage in longevity and wisdom on our side, so we can overcome.
Frankly, I don’t think the three of you are lacking on the power side either!
Well, yeah Shelly and Michelle are definitely strong, so they can bring it with brains and brawn. I’m still working on the brawn!
Well, you’re damn sure getting there! How did you come to Dane’s Body Shop?
I was working out at a gym in Tarrytown that had a similar format, and they did a good job, but they decided to change up their format completely and it wasn’t for me. They had a very nice community- Alexis (Dacy) was one of them- and she came over (to Dane’s) from the same place. So I tried it and went through that awkward newbie phase and there were a few moments where I didn’t know if I was going to keep going. When you come into a new place and you’re trying to figure out where you fit in and what the norms are and aren’t sure if it is going to work out, but Michelle started shortly after that and we ended up being in similar classes and it was nice to have a newbie buddy that I could navigate that awkward phase with.
That is true even as a coach- Dane does this thing when he has someone he is considering hiring where he just gives them a free membership to see if they like what The Shop does, does The Shop like what they do. Kind of an extended courtship; mine lasted like six months! There was a day in the beginning when I came home from a hybrid class and my wife, girlfriend at the time, was home on a break from grad school and was like “how was that class at that place you might work honey?” and I just shushed her and shook my head as I walked to the bathroom. She kind of followed me and I just started taking off my clothes and then, standing over the bath tub, proceeded to wring buckets of sweat out of them. She was like, “what did they do to you???”. Even as a coach, I had serious doubts at the beginning. But after a week or two, I found some members that I really vibed with. Some dude named Murphy I remember partnered with me several times and made it all feel more comfortable.
You hear about stuff like that all the time talking to members. When I read your interviews I see how the community helps people to find that comfort. It actually goes back to what I was saying earlier about Kenna- everybody is very supportive of wherever you are at. It is like a “no judgement, all encouragement zone” and I really appreciate that.
Is she starting to find her own connections outside of you? I know I am developing a fun little repartee with her.
Yeah! She and Shelly talk and the other day I saw Doak very sweetly asking her questions. I try not to be the helicopter mom and to just let her find her own connections. I try to do that in general, so it is important to do it at Dane’s also!
That is going to be great practice for her going off to college and dealing with people of different ages. I want to switch gears slightly- you’re in New Mexico often, why are you in New Mexico often?
I guess I just like it there. I’m not from Texas, as you recall, but I really like living in Austin and hope to stay in the general vicinity for the duration, but I also like the change of scenery and we have the good fortune of being able to find another place. Our criteria was that it had to be drivable-
It is Santa Fe right?
Yeah, we wanted to be able to take our dogs. And it had to be a different climate- so when you draw a one-day-drivable map from Austin, there really aren’t many choices. It was almost by default that we picked it.
There is an old Texas saying, “the sun has riz, the sun has set, and we ain’t out of Texas yet”. Have you heard that one?
*big laughter* I hope you put that in the transcript so that I can remember that.
I’ll put it in just for your benefit!
Thank you! So it is just a place to escape.
Aside from just the climate can you talk a little bit about the difference in like pace and feel from Austin?
There are similarities and there are huge differences. Austin has such a youthful energy and vibe and Santa Fe is the opposite- it is a place people have historically retired to. I always notice that out and about. There was a gym I used to go to up there and we called it “the old man gym” because it was just where the seniors hung out to get their workout in and do their kibitzing. It is also a little different because of its cultural heritage- the Native American population and the Spanish influence. I think the things that are similar is that there is a strong fitness culture there-
Really? I wouldn’t have guessed that.
Yeah, it is more like skiing and mountain biking- hiking. They are taking advantage of the outdoor activities there. Less from a gym perspective, but more people being excited to be outside and active. The food also.
I always just think lots of corn and peppers when I think Santa Fe.
The diversity in cuisine is really changing! Just like everywhere else in the “great migration”, people are moving out of west coast towns and settling there. So it is diversifying in terms of its population. So, for example, it isn’t difficult to find good Chinese food there or even decent Indian food. And obviously the art scene- they are more visual arts as opposed to the music here in Austin, but I think there are spaces where they really respect and respect the arts.
Now I’ve actually seen you in Santa Fe because you took brilliant advantage of our virtual workouts during the pandemic- is there a difference between Santa Fe M.J. as opposed to Austin M.J.?
That is a good question. Santa Fe M.J. is probably a little more chill because I’m working less- not on a schedule. My family might say I’m easier to get along with because I’m not on a crazy work schedule. Other than that, no-
You don’t arrive and magically channel the spirit of Georgia O’Keefe?
Oh I’ve got a hat I wear up there and some more Sante Fe style clothes.
You also just got back from New York City and with that in mind it occurred to me that a revelatory question to ask someone is, “what did you do while you were in New York?”. It is such an incredible city with so much of everything that you can tell a lot about someone by asking what they did with that opportunity.
That’s a great question! Kenna was with me and we were back in northern New Jersey to celebrate my dad’s 92nd birthday. That was the primary purpose of the trip- family. Then Kenna and I went into the city because we hadn’t been in since the pandemic. I was a little apprehensive because the city has suffered some set backs and crime is more abundant so I wasn’t sure what we were getting ourselves into.
Like the Son of Sam summer?
Well actually, people are getting pushed onto subway tracks and stuff- not pretty crime! But, it wasn’t as bad as people were depicting and we were in the subways with no issue. So we did four or five things: one is we went to the Neue Gallery which focuses on German & Austrian art and it is a really nice experience because it is a small gallery and you can really consume the entire exhibit unlike something that is so overwhelming like The Met. Another highlight was obviously eating- trying to get caught up on some of the good eats there-
What were the food highlights? Because I think that says a lot too.
We still lament the quality of Chinese food in Austin, so we made sure to hit that. Aside from our friends, Home Slice, down the street, the quality of pizza is still a work in progress in Austin, and we also did a nice Italian dinner as well. So those were the priorities- and I hate to do this because it sounds a little materialistic, but Kenna and I did a little bit of shopping because she has some big events coming up around graduation. So endless walking around and popping in places, just giving her a sense for the city. And the last thing for me was a little bit of nostalgia, because I lived there after I finished school. We walked by my first apartment and just by coincidence, on the corner of the block where my first apartment is, there is this really famous Ukrainian diner. Given current world events we were excited to check that out as well. A little bit of history, a little bit of food, and a little bit of commerce.
So what I’d draw from that is this is a well-rounded person who enjoys living life and has reasonable amounts of caution, but doesn’t let it inhibit them. Very nice! Speaking of things you need to be cautious about, I wanted to talk about horsies. So you have taken up riding horses and you used to ride as well- talk a little bit about your history with these beasts and what you’re doing now.
I’m going to show you a picture of my horse- which I’m technically leasing so that just means I subsidize her lifestyle. *passes me her phone to show me her magnificent pink and brown horse* That is Pinky- she is a warmblood which is a cross between a German warmblood and usually a thoroughbred of some sort. I started riding when I was 5 or 6 and I was one of those crazy horse-riding girls. I ride English- that is with the smaller saddles versus Western riders which is a bit more common in Texas. It was my sport- I didn’t do traditional sports, that was kind of my rebellion against this sports culture in my hometown. So I competed where I could and I used to jump horses. I had to take a hiatus in college, but when I hit 30 I had enough disposable income that I could start doing it again, so I got a horse when my husband and I were living in San Diego. I got really good at it again, but then I got pregnant with Kenna and it was time to hang up my boots for a while. One of the reasons we were excited to move to Texas was that it might be easier for me to balance work and horses- living in California, it just wasn’t feasible. Now that Kenna is ready to launch it felt like the right time to get back into it.
I love that you keep using the verb “launch”.
Yes! I like that so much better than empty-nesting or the other sad terms.
Yeah, it is like you’re a NASA scientist.
Exactly! Like I’m just shooting her off like a rocket into her adulthood.
More epic. So what does your riding these days consist of?
Getting my ass kicked basically! Just trying to get my form and muscles back. Riding is such a unique sport because you have to be in such good communication with your horse. You have to figure out every horse and how they behave. I really thought getting back into it would be easy because I’ve been doing all of these workouts at Dane’s and all of that is true but, you’re still using muscle groups that are `100% different. It really does make a difference to have the core strength built up. But still, I might be able to survive The Murph or Tire Tyrant, but sometimes just jumping around a course with a horse still takes my breath away.
And there is that element of unpredictability to it right?
Yeah, sometimes I think I’m being a real idiot because it is a really risky sport, but you only live once!
The great thing about barbells is they tend to not have a mind of their own!
Indeed, indeed- you are in control… most of the time. So I’m just trying to get my form back and get more comfortable jumping the fences I jumped before.
Do you have any words for what horse riding means to you? As someone who knows nothing about riding horses, I assume there is a major element of freedom to it.
There is some of that for sure. I think for me the thing is you can’t be a hysterical mess around a horse because they vibe off of you and so you just have to be calm and in tune with another animal. You can’t be thinking about other things, so for me it is a huge stress reliever and a way to wipe out what might be nagging you on a given day.
That kind of relates back to something Anna (Grimes) said in my interview with her a couple weeks ago. She was talking about how movement can be meditation. She was kind of pushing back against the idea that stillness had to be a part of meditation.
100%, I can totally relate to her comment in that regard. I feel like the fitness routines I have keep my stress and anxiety at bay. The movement helps create the distraction to go into that (calm) space. Being still, it is so much harder to control that monkey mind.
Just real quick, we’ve danced around the idea of you being busy at work and such and I know you work for Apple, so I just wanted to touch briefly on what you do.
I’ve worked with them since 2004, so I’ve seen a lot-
That is before the iphone!
Yeah, itunes was brand new. Most of my time has been spent in customer experience and support, but now that I’m edging toward the twilight of my career I do people support. I manage a team of about 150 people around the world who’s job it is to answer employee questions or concerns and making sure those employees get the needed information so they are able to do their job and not be distracted from day to day work. Managing teams around the world is just a constant thing.
Managing the answer givers? That feels like levels upon levels.
*laughing* Yeah, I suppose it kind of is.
And with timezones, I can see that spilling all over your day.
Oh yeah, I talk to Europe early in the morning and then I’m talking to Singapore and China in the evenings. My schedule is definitely not my own, so I have to find windows and create boundaries. But I love it and it is why I have so many apple t-shirts to workout in!
That is really interesting. Well, we will move into a few random questions before we wrap up-
These are the questions I’m afraid of!
We talked about your relationship with horses. If you were to pick an animal to represent you that isn’t a horse, what is the M.J. animal?
I’m going to say a giraffe- I really would have picked horse, but since you took that off the table, I went with giraffe because I think they generally have a fairly calm presence. I’ve been told I have a calm presence and I think that just might be me being good at masking what is going on inside. Giraffes hang out in smaller groups and I’m kind of a small group kinda gal. I’ve been in so many professional development settings with personality tests, so I know I like to see things from the treetops.
I was guessing something to do with perspective would play into that answer. What is your zodiac sign?
I’m a Leo, so a land sign.
Maybe it makes sense that you picked giraffe, cause I’m sure a lion would like a giraffe as well! Maybe it is just because you are a calm person, but I don’t think of you as someone who swears a lot. Do you have a favorite swear word?
*mischievous giggle* You’re right that I don’t swear too much, but historically it might be “goddamn it”. There is a story that my mom & grandma used to tell where, apparently my mom would drop a “goddamn” frequently, because apparently when I was three the dog made me mad, so I pushed it and said “get out of my way you goddamn dog!”. I think that one stuck in the lexicon.
I would imagine with your job in traveling that you’ve done karaoke a few times?
Oh god… no I avoid that at the plague. That would be like my worst nightmare.
That is a helluva answer because I was setting myself up to ask if you had a go to karaoke song!
No! I don’t even want to get on the stage. I have to do a lot of public speaking for work and I really have to work on that.
Great answer! Dinner party question: you have the chance to sit down with 1-3 people currently living or from history to dine and talk- who do you choose?
This is one I should have thought about ahead of time because it is a hard one. Hmm… One is my dad. No shade to my mom, but I would pick my dad. Hmm… who else would I pick? If I’m combining everyone together, I’m going to add Winston Churchill-
He’s on my list too!
Who would be the third? Oh geez… I don’t have a name that comes to mind, but the additional element I’d want to introduce into the party to throw some contrast into the old white male selections would either be a female historical trend-setter or innovator or a current one. I’m struggling to think of.
I think Catherine The Great would be a solid fit with Winston anyway- I don’t know your dad.
That would be a good one. Maybe something a little bit more contemporary, but that is the right direction.
I’m always intrigued when someone picks someone who is actually in their life. Why your dad?
The short answer is, and I’d be happy to elaborate if you think that would be interesting, he has a really interesting life story and he is an extremely well-read and well educated person with diverse interests and knowledge. Ever time I talk to him, I learn something from him.
I’m intrigued enough, I actually do want to hear more.
One of the reasons he is an interesting man is he was a Roman Catholic Priest for twenty plus years in New York City before he met and married my mom. He was very classically educated and has four different degrees in different areas. He knows all the classics and has obviously led a very spiritual life, then when he turned forty he married my mom and didn’t have a dime to his name. So he had to reinvent himself at the age of forty and became a parent of two kids and a working professional. He had to leave a life that he grew up in and his departure was based on things that were really core to him and also some concerns about the institution he was representing and where that was going. He made a major change and had a very interesting 2nd, 3rd, 4th chapter of his life.
It is always kind of a shame when you hear the Catholic Priest punchline. Very much deserved by the bad actors and the institution, but some of the most interesting people are Catholic Priests. I think my first interview ever was a long form discussion with a Catholic Priest for a project in college.
They get great education.
I love talking to someone who can surprise me, and I was so surprised by this person.
(My dad) was part of the church at the time that was advocating for civil rights and participating in the marches and just being active socially. He was in a cohort of people who bailed out all at the same time given the unfortunate things that were happening within the church. A lot of his friends were former priests and nuns as crazy as that sounds.
I actually might need to update my dinner list to have your dad on it! I read a lot of biographies and one of the things I’m morbidly fascinated by are last words. What would your last words be?
I don’t know if I can come up with anything statement oriented. I’d probably pick a couple key words about what I felt like my life and ethos is all about. I’ll just react spontaneously to your question and say: “grateful” comes to the top of the list, “loved” I feel really privileged to have come from a really loving family and to live in a loving family now, and I would probably try to come up with some other word that represents my interest and care for others.
That is great! That is a new one I’ve never asked before, so you had no way to prepare for it. I was wondering if it was too hard a question- a little too heavy.
Well it definitely is heavy, but fortunately you asked it during my second glass of wine-
Not fortune, that is planning!
I should know, you’re the master. Can I take the table and turn it on you and ask what yours would be?
Wow. I did not expect you to take this table and turn it around on me.
Have another swig of beer, it helps the thinking process!
Then my final words would be, “Never try to turn the tables on an interviewer”.
Touché!
No, your answer is really great and I’m finding it hard to not be swayed by it. Okay, so it being St. Patrick’s Day, it might be something like, “You may kill me, *switching to cartoonish Irish accent* but yer never gonna be able to get my Lucky Charms”! So that is my bullshit answer and I’ll try to think of a better one. That is actually a nice button to end on. Did you have anything else you wanted to say that I haven’t already probed you on.
Just that I appreciate you and The Shop and the larger community and I’m so grateful that I found it and that I get to be a part of it!
And the feeling is mutual; we are better for having you in that larger community!
